Empire Podcast - Why GPS Needs Crypto to Evolve w/ GeodNet

In this episode of Empire which took place on July 5, 2024, Yano, and Santi hosted Mike Horton and Christopher Perkins to discuss GeodNet’s advancements in GPS technology, the role of blockchain in enhancing GPS accuracy, the future of DePIN projects, and more. Read our notes below to learn more.

Background

Yano (Host) – Founder of Blockworks

Santi (Host) – Host at Empire Podcast

Mike Horton (Guest) – Founder at GeodNet

Christopher Perkins (Guest) – President at CoinFund

GeodNet – a DePIN project aiming to enhance GPS accuracy from meters to centimeters

Enhancing GPS Accuracy: GeodNet’s Role in Revolutionizing Satellite Navigation Systems

Mike explains that GeodNet stands for the Global Earth Observation Decentralised Network, a network of satellite miners providing fundamental infrastructure for satellite navigation systems, enhancing accuracy and precision for various devices.
Mike discusses his extensive experience in the navigation industry, explaining the challenges of signal distortion caused by atmospheric conditions which affect the accuracy of satellite navigation systems. He shares how blockchain and Web3 technologies are revolutionizing the development of scalable solutions for these issues.
Yano asks about the necessity of improving GPS systems, noting that current GPS seems sufficient for everyday use.
Mike explains the complexities behind GPS technology, highlighting the role of augmentation networks in achieving faster and more accurate positioning. He highlights the advancements made by GeodNet in providing highly accurate, decentralized global observations crucial for managing variable atmospheric delays impacting GPS accuracy.
Mike explains the importance of GeodNet’s enhancements for applications requiring high precision, such as autonomous technologies and spatial intelligence, detailing how GeodNet significantly improves precision compared to traditional GPS systems.

Revolutionizing Precision Technology with Blockchain

Chris explains that his military training at the Naval Academy, especially in celestial navigation, emphasized the importance of precise location knowledge. He highlights how this training influenced his understanding of the technology’s applications in precision agriculture, automated driving, and advanced gaming, due to the need for centimeter-level accuracy.
Mike talks about why building the company in a traditional web2 manner did not work, noting previous efforts to establish similar networks and the rapid growth of their network compared to industry standards.
Mike mentions the challenges of the web2 model, such as high costs, time-consuming infrastructure development, and the impracticality of using cellular towers for AGNSS stations due to interference issues. He contrasts this with their blockchain model, which allows for quick, reliable, and permissionless network expansion, ensuring precise data for users.
Yano asks about the nature of their marketplace. Mike describes it as the GPS marketplace. He explains the various stakeholders from chipset manufacturers to end users in construction, emphasizing the broad and rapidly growing demand for precise satellite-based location services within a market expanding due to new satellite deployments and the increasing importance of managing atmospheric effects with low earth orbit satellites.
Yano questions what constitutes the supply side, assuming it involves placing a device like a miner or a machine outside or on a rooftop.
Mike says that they refer to them as satellite miners or space weather stations, emphasizing the necessity of a clear sky view, stable internet, and power connections for mining GeodNet. He advocates for installing in empty HEX to potentially earn location NFTs, highlighting the importance of first mover advantage for long-term rewards and the aim to establish a stable, strong network.
Christopher mentions the importance of considering total addressable market, founders, and utility in investments, praising Mike’s expertise and the project’s ability to utilize Web3 for creating a large RTK network.
He highlights the significant utility for precision agriculture, making advanced technology more accessible and cost-effective for a broader range of farmers, and mentions the potential in other sectors such as construction and gaming.
Santi highlights the real-world utility and the positive reception at industry conferences, which he believes adds credibility and relatability to the project.
Mike recounts the project’s inception at a satellite navigation conference, initially concerned about the reception of the crypto and blockchain aspects but eventually winning an award for their whitepaper.
He describes the broad interest from both web2 and web3 communities, the decentralized nature of satellite navigation, and the project’s successful demonstrations at various technology shows.
Mike highlights the project’s significant advancements in the U.S. and Europe, and its future focus on developing regions lacking robust infrastructure.

Expanding High-Precision Infrastructure: Mike’s Vision for a Decentralized Ecosystem and DePIN’s Future

Mike recognizes that public companies have raised around $250 million collectively to build mass-market, high-precision infrastructure. He points out that these companies are moving slowly and lack comprehensive coverage, which is why they turn to private equity and venture capital markets for funding.
Mike discusses the ecosystem approach of his project, where everyone can participate. He explains that their token garners significant interest from the web2 infrastructure community, seeing it as a chance to share in the success of a transformative solution that leverages existing physical infrastructure.
Santi highlights how DIY enthusiasts globally are eager to invest upfront in the network, compared to Bitcoin miners investing in hardware. He asks Mike to provide a sense of scale regarding the project’s coverage and collective costs.
Mike mentions ambitious goals to expand their network to 10,000 stations by year-end and 20,000 to provide robust global coverage. He explains that the decentralized nature of geospatial data makes traditional centralized approaches ineffective and praises the capital efficiency of their model.
Christopher discusses how their technology is being adopted by sectors like agriculture and drones, where equipment dealers in rural areas quickly integrate their nodes into the network.
Mike details how their approach differs from previous IoT projects by emphasizing high precision location services over broader network applications like those used by Helium. He mentions the challenges Helium faced, such as lack of incentive for quality coverage and protocol issues, and how they’ve learned from these to enhance their own network quality and reliability.
Yano asks Mike about the current revenue situation, noting that they are at around a million in recurring revenue and have been growing through new customer acquisitions. Mike mentions the rapid signing of enterprise deals and the promising scalability and attractiveness of their model to the web2 sector.
Mike explains that they perceive DePIN as potentially fundamental to financial infrastructure like Bitcoin and Ethereum, though it still needs to demonstrate its long-term viability. He emphasizes their commitment to proving DePIN’s reliability and quality to scale revenue.
Mike lists Tesla, Amazon, and Google as dream clients, illustrating the high level of precision location services they require, which DePIN aims to provide.

Managing Miner Density and Precision Challenges: GeodNet’s Token System and Industry Applications

Yano asks how the issue of decreasing profits with increased miner density, experienced by Helium, is managed. He asks about the economic dynamics as more miners populate an area.
Mike says that their tokens primarily emphasize utility, which is realized through a burning mechanism that reduces total circulating supply. He mentions that scarcity is maintained by limiting the number of nodes and rewarding first movers with location-based NFTs.
Mike highlights an annual halving to control emission rates, advocating for a slower, sustainable growth that aligns with community development.
Yano asks if any Web2 companies are hesitant to collaborate due to their token system.
Mike says that most Web2 companies are curious and see potential economic advantages in their token system, expressing overall support from the industry despite regulatory concerns.
Yano mentions Christopher’s interaction with his military friends regarding the precision improvements from three feet to smaller measures, questioning if the crypto aspect might deter them.
Christopher shares that his discussions with military personnel, especially pilots, reveal a strong interest in the project’s accuracy and redundancy capabilities, despite general reservations about NFTs.
Mike explains the importance of terrestrial data for reliable satellite navigation and its role in mitigating risks like jamming and spoofing, which have led to flight cancellations. He explains that their network is crucial for ensuring safety in aviation and potentially other industries facing similar challenges.
Mike notes that several manufacturers have selected GeodNet for integration, with announcements expected soon. He explains the deployment of professional landscaping robots already in operation, and a consumer robot set to launch soon, emphasizing their significant market potential.
Mike shares that his personal experience with these robots in his properties in Los Altos Hills and Texas has been positive, likening their function to daily lawn trimming. He points out the financial benefits for both landscaping companies and individual homeowners.
Christopher comments on the technical challenges of precision in landing robots, specifically in drone operations, where accuracy is crucial.

Leveraging RTK for Drone Precision and Decentralization: GeodNet and DePIN Tokens

Mike discusses the advantages of RTK (Real-Time Kinematic) in improving drone flight and accuracy in photography, particularly in challenging conditions. He highlights the broader applications of RTK in drone surveys for creating precise 3D models.
Mike adds that a webinar will soon discuss the integration of high-precision navigation technologies for autonomous applications, reinforcing the importance of sensor fusion.
Yano asks about GeodNet’s business structure, asking if it is a public or private company and how it accrues value.
Mike explains GeodNet’s focus on full decentralization and the goal for the protocol to be completely decentralized by mid-2025, emphasizing the unique aspects of their approach in the field.
Chris speculates on the potential financial dynamics of DePIN tokens, suggesting that while immediate spikes in value might not occur, long-term utility and demand will drive value accumulation. He highlights the importance of real utility in creating lasting value.
Santi questions what could potentially derail their project and asks about the major risks foreseen, especially considering the common focus on price in the crypto sphere.
Mike says that most of the core risks have been addressed and are now behind them, but highlights broad geopolitical instability as a top concern. He says such instability could impact the regulatory climate and general connectivity, which is critical for their infrastructure-focused projects.
He stresses the importance of gaining brand credibility for DePIN to be seen as a long-term solution like established technologies such as Ethereum and Solana.
Mike discusses the lack of community within the DePIN industry, acknowledging that his project could improve in this area. He mentions Solana’s efforts to organize events to enhance community interaction across various chains, which he views as crucial for the growth of the Web3 side of DePIN.
Mike says that they chose Polygon due to its reliability and involvement in multiple DePIN initiatives. He highlights the importance of the community aspect and their focus on improving it.

The Crucial Balance of Community and Technical Considerations in DePIN Projects

Yano asks if Mike would consider switching to a different blockchain solely for a better community, ignoring technical aspects.
Mike says that technical considerations are always important but agrees that a strong community is crucial. He discusses the need to enhance community engagement to support the DePIN projects more broadly.
Mike says that both the crypto community and their non-crypto end users are essential. He says that maintaining narrative control is vital to ensure DePIN is seen as a long-term infrastructure solution. He looks forward to showcasing DePIN’s integration of Web2 and Web3 at the upcoming CES to highlight its broad applications and partnership potential.
Christopher states the importance of the project’s utility and addressing real-world needs. He identifies a major risk as someone else figuring out a cheaper, better, and faster solution.
He expresses confidence in Mike, noting his knowledge of the latest academic innovations and his leadership in building the world’s largest RTK network swiftly, using tokens to incentivize behaviors that would otherwise be prohibitively expensive.

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Show Information

Medium: YouTube (Video)

Show: Empire

Show Title: Why GPS Needs Crypto to Evolve | Mike & Christopher, GEODNET

Show Date: July 5, 2024